Re: [Snort-users] [Bleeding-sigs] RE: What's up with Snort's

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Re: [Snort-users] [Bleeding-sigs] RE: What's up with Snort's

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07-24-2007

Martin Roesch

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Re: [Snort-users] [Bleeding-sigs] RE: What's up with Snort's

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Alan,


Thanks for the invite to participate in a panel =
discussion.  I'm  

 going to decline on similar grounds to Victor.  =
I've already made my  

 thoughts on the matter public in my blog and the =
Q&A email sent to  

 Snort-users the other day.  At the end of the =
day further discussion  

 on licensing comes down to an idealogical debate and =
like religion  

 and politics these differences in opinion are rarely =
resolved.  I'd  

 be happy to further address any questions from the =
community on a one  

 to one basis.


I'm a programmer not a lawyer, let's get back to =
talking about cool  

 technology.


        -Marty


On Jul 19, 2007, at 9:20 AM, Alan Shimel wrote:


> Hopefully this will not bounce, as I registered =
this email address  

 > on the list.

 >

 >

 >

 > With all of the back and forth regarding these =
issues I would like  

 > to invite Marty, Matt Jonkman, Victor and maybe =
some of the other  

 > folks who have written to appear on my podcast =
that I do weekly.   

 > We can do it with either with live call ins for =
questions or have  

 > people submit their questions.  I think it =
will be a great chance  

 > to clear the air and give everyone their say and =
then hopefully put  

 > these issues to bed once and for all.  =
Marty, Matt, Victor, et al,  

 > what do you say?  Would you be willing to =
get on a panel and  

 > discuss these issues?

 >

 >

 >

 > Let me know

 >

 >

 >

 > alan

 >

 >

 >

 > StillSecure

 > Alan Shimel

 > Chief Strategy Officer

 >

 > O 303.381.3815

 > C 516.857.7409

 > F 303.381.3881

 >

 >

 >

 > <image001.gif>

 >

 > www.stillsecure.com

 > The information transmitted is intended only for =
the person

 > to whom it is addressed and may contain =
confidential material.

 > Review or other use of this information by =
persons other than

 > the intended recipient is prohibited. If you've =
received

 > this in error, please contact the sender and =
delete

 > from any computer.

 >

 > From: snort-users-bounces@lists.sourceforge.net =
[<A HREF=3D"mailto:snort-users-">mailto:snort-users-</A> 

 > bounces@lists.sourceforge.net] On Behalf Of Matt =
Jonkman

 > Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 10:48 PM

 > To: Martin Roesch; Snort Users

 > Cc: Bleeding Sigs

 > Subject: [Snort-users] [Bleeding-sigs] RE: =
What's up with Snort's  

 > license?

 >

 >

 >

 > Appreciate the reply Marty. I'm the person who =
said you'd slipped  

 > this in on

 > a Friday before a long weekend. I mentioned that =
because that's what

 > happened the last time SF did something and then =
didn't communicate  

 > with the

 > community for weeks afterwards. 3.0 license =
release I think it was  

 > maybe? I

 > forget. But had someone mentioned that you had =
to do this in a rush  

 > because

 > of outside factors we'd have known =
different....

 >

 > And that time, and the time before, (and =
probably the time before  

 > that IIRC)

 > you said SF was in the wrong by not putting out =
a note that  

 > something was

 > changing right away, or even that you had to do =
something and would be

 > explaining it shortly. When SF goes into a =
communication blackout  

 > it's quite

 > obvious. The "I'm too busy" thing =
frankly doesn't sound plausible.  

 > Over two

 > weeks is more than enough time for anyone to =
send out an email that  

 > says

 > "We're aware of the situation, we'll update =
you shortly". If you were

 > spending the time waiting for legal review then =
say so. And let us  

 > know up

 > front that's what we're waiting for. Otherwise =
you just foment the

 > conspiracy theories and undermine the corporate =
confidence that  

 > snort will

 > remain stable and community oriented. But I =
think we've had this

 > conversation before, so I won't beat the dead =
horse any longer.

 >

 > I haven't a problem with you protecting code and =
your rights, but the

 > willy-nilly changing of others copyright is not =
something that  

 > should happen

 > by accident. That's not like changing the colors =
on a website,  

 > that's sacred

 > ground. Rushing through that was a huge hit to =
trust.

 >

 > So my questions:

 >

 > Will the coders that have more than trivial =
portions of code in  

 > snort be

 > receiving a proportional chunk of the money you =
make when on  

 > relicensing

 > Snort under the commercial license? Future and =
historical  

 > contracts? That

 > seems a fair thing to do, unless you intend to =
buy out their  

 > copyright?

 > That'd be fair as well. But in protecting the =
authors of Snort  

 > (yourself and

 > others), you've got to consider all of them when =
the money flows.

 >

 > If they're not to be reimbursed under your =
relicensing revenue, do  

 > they then

 > also have the right to sell snort under a =
commercial license of  

 > their own?

 >

 > Why's CVS down still? Why was it down in the =
first place?

 >

 > Have you had the time now to identify exactly =
what issues in GPLv3  

 > are an

 > issue for SF? I've seen talk of the patent =
prohibition stuff as  

 > being a

 > possible issue. Is that what's a concern for =
SF?

 >

 > To be clear: I do appreciate your stewardship of =
Snort. Better  

 > communication

 > would not put so many into a default hostile and =
suspicious stance.

 >

 > Matt

 >

 >

 >

 > > -----Original Message-----

 > > From: =
snort-users-bounces@lists.sourceforge.net

 > > [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:snort-users-bounces@lists.sourceforge.net">mailto:snort-us=
ers-bounces@lists.sourceforge.net</A>] On Behalf

 > > Of Martin Roesch

 > > Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 4:49 =
AM

 > > To: Snort Users

 > > Subject: [Snort-users] What's up with =
Snort's license?

 > >

 > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 > > Hash: SHA1

 > >

 > > Hi everyone,

 > >

 > > I posted this message on my blog a few =
minutes ago, please read it

 > > and let me know what you think if you're =
interested in Snort

 > > licensing issues.

 > >

 > > - --

 > >

 > > There have been a lot of questions and =
speculation about the things

 > > we (Sourcefire) have been changing in =
Snort's licensing recently and

 > > it needs to be addressed so that we can =
clear the air.

 > >

 > > There are three things that people have =
been asking questions about

 > > or having issues with.

 > >

 > > 1) GPL v2 lock that we put in place on June =
29th.

 > > 2) "Clarifications" in Snort's =
license language (Snort 3.0).

 > > 3) "Clarifications" with regard =
to assignments of ownership for

 > > contributed code (Snort 3.0).

 > >

 > > Let me address these issues in =
order.

 > >

 > > 1) GPL v2 lock.

 > >

 > > Here's what happened. About 3 weeks ago I =
got a heads up that under

 > > GPL v2, a licensee can choose to use GPL v3 =
if we don't specify what

 > > version of the GPL to use; conceivably we =
could have people forking

 > > and changing license on us. Seeing as GPL =
v3 didn't even

 > > "ship" until

 > > June 29th we didn't feel like we were going =
to be able to make any

 > > decision on the language that was contained =
in the new version until

 > > we'd had some time to perform a formal =
legal review. It also didn't

 > > help that they decided to release on the =
last day of the quarter.

 > > Another contributing factor to the decision =
for me was that Linus

 > > decided to keep the Linux kernel at GPL v2, =
that in itself

 > > was enough

 > > to get me to hit the pause button and take =
some serious time

 > > reviewing this new license before making =
any decision. Linus himself

 > > said "I'm not arguing against the =
GPLv3. I'm arguing that the GPLv3

 > > is wrong for _me_, and it's not the license =
I ever chose." It's not

 > > the license we chose either and we're not =
moving to it without a

 > > conscious decision to do so.

 > >

 > > If we didn't want the code base moving to =
the new version then what

 > > could we do? The simplest thing given the =
time constraints that we

 > > were working within was just to change the =
language in the source

 > > file header preambles (and not the license =
itself) noting that we

 > > were specifying Snort at GPL version 2 =
until we could make a solid

 > > and informed decision about how we wanted =
to treat GPL v3.

 > >

 > > For those of you with wholly contributed =
source files where the file

 > > headers were changed, many (most/all?) of =
them referred to "the

 > > program" as being under an indistinct =
version number (not just your

 > > source files) and so rather than try to =
track everyone down in the

 > > time frame we had to work with *I* made a =
unilateral decision

 > > to just

 > > move forward with it and we'd clean up the =
mess afterwards.

 > > I'm sorry

 > > for the "bull in the china shop" =
routine but we felt like we needed

 > > to have this language out there before GPL =
v3 shipped at noon EDT on

 > > June 29th. Clearly there were some mistakes =
made, obviously we

 > > shouldn't have changed things like the BSD =
license on the

 > > strl* files

 > > and so on, we'll fix that too. As Victor =
observed, this was done in

 > > something of a hurry. BTW, we didn't try to =
"slip it out on a

 > > Friday"

 > > per the note on some blog, Friday was the =
deadline and we had to  

 > move.

 > >

 > > Where do we go from here? We're going to =
examine the language in the

 > > new license and decide if we want to move =
forward with it. This is

 > > going to take a while but we'll make an =
announcement when we

 > > make the

 > > final decision. For those of you who have =
wholly authored source

 > > files that would like the language changed =
for your source

 > > files back

 > > to the original, with the provision that =
the language reflect that

 > > you're just referring to your file and not =
the entirety of the

 > > program, just let us (me) know and send us =
the verbage you want and

 > > we'll make the change. For those of you who =
object to this sort of

 > > thing all together that would like to =
maintain your code as an

 > > external patch set for Snort instead of in =
the main source

 > > tree, give

 > > us the heads up and we'll pull your code =
from the source trees. Once

 > > again, this is with the provision that we =
may reimplement the

 > > capabilities that your code offers as =
Sourcefire-authored code if it

 > > happens to be something that we consider =
important to the project.

 > >

 > > If anyone has any other input I'd be happy =
to hear it. Contrary to

 > > what several groups with vested interests =
seem to be promoting,

 > > Sourcefire isn't interested in closing =
Snort's source code or making

 > > this a closed-source project. The community =
continues to be

 > > important

 > > to us and we have no plans on that ever =
changing.

 > >

 > > 2) Snort 3.0 "clarifications" and =
the GPL

 > >

 > > There has been a fair amount of opinion =
being put forth by people in

 > > the blogging world that Snort 3.0 will no =
longer be "open

 > > source" due

 > > to the clarifications that we put in place. =
This is just plain  

 > wrong.

 > >

 > > Sourcefire produces Snort as an open source =
project. My interest as

 > > the guy who started this whole thing and =
who has worked on and

 > > advanced this project for closing in on 9 =
years now has always been

 > > how good we can make the technology and how =
well we can serve the

 > > needs of the community. Now that Snort has =
my company behind it, the

 > > priorities really haven't changed but =
there's an interesting dynamic

 > > out there with companies that are using =
Snort as a part of their

 > > product or service offering. Many of them =
seem to expect us to work

 > > on this technology and improve it =
continuously so that their

 > > offering

 > > is cutting edge but contribute nothing to =
the project and complain

 > > bitterly whenever we do something that =
might cost them some money to

 > > continue to use a best-of-breed technology =
like this.

 > >

 > > It's Free as in "Free Speech", =
not Free as in "Free Money" people!

 > > Companies that use Snort as part of a =
service or product seem to be

 > > having a tough time accepting this. The =
goal of the new licensing

 > > language is to define what we consider to =
constitute

 > > conditions under

 > > which something built on or around Snort is =
a derivative work

 > > subject

 > > to the stipulations of the GPL (i.e. =
putting the derivative code

 > > under the GPL license). Despite all the =
gnashing of teeth that has

 > > resulted from this clarification, what =
we've really done is take

 > > about the most "open" stance you =
can with a GPL project and put it

 > > out there, true open source champions =
should be applauding us

 > > for our

 > > position.

 > >

 > > That didn't happen. Instead we've gotten a =
litany of grousing from

 > > the blogerati, primarily because we've =
offered a commercial license

 > > for people who don't want to play by the =
rules of the GPL in their

 > > product and service offerings that will =
(*gasp*!) cost money. If

 > > you're licensing technology from Sourcefire =
(which all of you using

 > > the GPL version of Snort are doing) and you =
don't wish to live under

 > > the terms of that license, we're giving you =
another one to choose

 > > from. If you don't like having world-class =
security technology

 > > available for a fee because it affects your =
cost structure, that's

 > > not my problem. If you want to use it for =
free then you have to live

 > > by the license but people always seem to =
interpret the GPL in ways

 > > that are optimally advantageous to them (if =
they don't just take the

 > > code directly and bury it in their =
product). The clarifications we

 > > put into Snort 3 are there to get us all on =
the same page and

 > > to make

 > > sure that commercial users of the =
technology understand that we're

 > > not a "venture technology" =
company, giving them technology for free

 > > to enable their business models which =
frequently compete against us

 > > in some regard. There's nothing wrong with =
using Snort as a part of

 > > your commercial offering as long as you =
adhere to its

 > > license. If you

 > > can't do that then we need to talk.

 > >

 > > At the same time we've taken many measures =
to ensure that the end

 > > users of the technology are unaffected. =
Want to integrate Snort or

 > > part of Snort into your open source =
project? No problem, it's free.

 > > Want to deploy 100 home-made Snort sensors =
in your non-profit/

 > > enterprise/government organization ? Go for =
it. Want to learn how

 > > these systems work at the code level? No =
problem, it's all there.

 > > Want transparency of your security =
technology and the content that

 > > drives it? It's all there, as it should be. =
Want to have access to

 > > the internals to extend or correct or add =
your own value to the

 > > project or just your operational =
environment? All part of the open

 > > source concept, make it happen. Want to =
fork and make your own IPS

 > > project built on the code-base? You can do =
that, just make sure you

 > > understand what you're doing in maintaining =
proper licensing for the

 > > forked project and respect our IP.

 > >

 > > I personally have *always* been the biggest =
advocate for the

 > > users of

 > > Snort since the day this company was formed =
and I always will be.

 > >

 > > 3) Snort 3.0 and IP assignments

 > >

 > > This is the most controversial provision of =
the clarifications that

 > > we put into the Snort 3.0 license. =
Basically what it says is:

 > >

 > > * By sending these changes to Sourcefire or =
one of the Sourcefire-

 > > moderated

 > > * mailing lists or forums, you are granting =
to Sourcefire, Inc. the

 > > unlimited,

 > > * perpetual, non-exclusive right to reuse, =
modify, and/or relicense

 > > the code.

 > > * Snort will always be available Open =
Source, but this is important

 > > * because the inability to relicense code =
has caused devastating

 > > problems for

 > > * other Free Software projects (such as KDE =
and NASM). We also

 > > occasionally

 > > * relicense the code to third parties as =
discussed above. If

 > > you wish to

 > > * specify special license conditions of =
your contributions, just say

 > > so when

 > > * you send them.

 > >

 > > So what's that mean? If you send a patch to =
the mailing lists or to

 > > Sourcefire, if you contribute code to the =
Snort project we consider

 > > that code and it's IP to be =
"assigned" to us. The reason for doing

 > > this should be pretty clear, we don't feel =
that contributing

 > > a 3-line

 > > patch to a 200k+ LOC codebase means that =
the contributer has

 > > copyright claims over Snort at that point. =
In the early years there

 > > were many people who contributed (in any =
way) to Snort but over the

 > > years since Sourcefire was incorporated the =
total contribution by

 > > these external contributers has decreased =
substantially. After that,

 > > Sourcefire developed more and more of the =
code, especially the core

 > > functionality of the detection engine and =
preprocessors, not to

 > > mention tons of the rules as well. I have =
felt for a long time that

 > > we need to have a sense of proportionality =
about this and we should

 > > also have the ability to be flexible with =
the code base in terms of

 > > licensing without needing to approach every =
contributer individually

 > > to get sign-off on any changes that we =
make. That's why we've put

 > > this provision into Snort 3.0.

 > >

 > > This "assumptive assignment" is =
exactly what projects like Nmap use.

 > > Perhaps we should take the next step and =
use the FSF's model where

 > > contributers to projects like GCC need to =
sign a legal document

 > > explicitly to contribute to the project. =
The FSF does this because

 > > they need to have flexibility but also =
because they need to get out

 > > from under any potential problems that may =
occur due to someone

 > > inappropriately contributing IP from a 3rd =
party. I don't like that

 > > concept because of the overhead associated =
with interacting with the

 > > project, Snort's not a huge project like =
GCC so I've liked that

 > > people can contribute as they see fit. The =
FSF does take one

 > > additional step, they guarantee that the =
projects that people make

 > > assignments to will be available as open =
source projects in

 > > perpetuity. I think that maybe we need to =
make a statement like that

 > > but quite frankly it's always been our =
position that Snort will

 > > always be available as Free Software and we =
have no intention to

 > > change our position ever.

 > >

 > > I think that the part of this provision =
that people have had

 > > the most

 > > trouble with is that we also retain the =
right to relicense the

 > > contributed code under alternative =
licenses. We have to be

 > > able to do

 > > that if we're going to offer alternative =
licenses to Snort,

 > > maintaining a "patch free" code =
branch and a "patch tainted" branch

 > > doesn't make any sense to me and probably =
not to you either. The

 > > assignment doesn't mean we're going to =
"steal" your code and

 > > "disappear" it CIA-style. It =
means that we need to be able to retain

 > > the right to offer it under our commercial =
license. The code you

 > > contribute will always be available to you =
and everyone else in the

 > > open source code base, we're not going to =
steal it but we are going

 > > to make it available to our commercial =
users. If you've got a

 > > problem

 > > with this, don't contribute the code to us, =
maintain it as an

 > > external patch.

 > >

 > > That's about it. I'm sorry we haven't been =
as communicative with the

 > > OSS community as we probably should be, I =
personally have a lot of

 > > demands on my time and I'm the person at SF =
who's the most familiar

 > > with the totality of the Snort project so I =
have a lot of input into

 > > the process here and I'm also fairly =
parochial regarding

 > > communicating concepts like this to the =
user community. In

 > > the future

 > > I'll try to be more forthcoming with all of =
you and I hope you'll

 > > continue to be patient with both me and =
Sourcefire; our

 > > hearts really

 > > are in the right place with the users of =
this technology but we also

 > > have to be pragmatic about how all of this =
is going to work

 > > given all

 > > of the commercial use that Snort =
sees.

 > >

 > > We're trying to be pragmatic about these =
issues, I hope that people

 > > can feel comfortable with the direction =
that we're taking things. I

 > > look forward to reading people's =
responses.

 > >

 > >       =
-Marty

 > >

 > > - --

 > > Martin Roesch - Founder/CTO, Sourcefire =
Inc. - +1-410-290-1616

 > > Sourcefire - Security for the Real World - =
<A =
HREF=3D"http://www.sourcefire.com">http://www.sourcefire.com</A>

 > > Snort: Open Source IDP - <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.snort.org">http://www.snort.org</A>

 > >

 > >

 > >

 > >

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 > > Snort-users@lists.sourceforge.net

 > > Go to this URL to change user options or =
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 > > Snort-users list archive:

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 > >

 >

 > =
_______________________________________________

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 > Bleeding-sigs@bleedingthreats.net

 > <A =
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 >

 > No virus found in this incoming message.

 > Checked by AVG Free Edition.

 > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.9/907 =
- Release Date:  

 > 7/18/2007 3:30 PM

 >

 >

 >


- --

 Martin Roesch - Founder/CTO, Sourcefire Inc. - =
+1-410-290-1616

 Sourcefire - Security for the Real World - <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.sourcefire.com">http://www.sourcefire.com</A>

 Snort: Open Source IDP - <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.snort.org">http://www.snort.org</A>

 
 
 

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Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.16/914 - Release Date: =
7/23/2007 7:45 PM 
 


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