Python as replacement for PHP?

This is somewhat a NEWBIE question...

My company maintains a small RDBS driven website. We currently generate
HTML using PHP. I've hacked a bit in Python, and generally think it is a
rather cool language. I've done Perl and like it, there are a few features
of PHP I like but overall am not too excited about it. I have found PHP's
strtotime() function to be quite flexible and handy and we make liberal use
of it.

I have not yet really "dug-in" to Python - I have dabbled and hacked a
bit. I am advocating considering switching to Python for a number of
reasons:

1) I think Python is cool.
2) We can do system administration type scripts (currently
implemented in Perl), web page generation (PHP), and (potentially)
client-side applications (including GUI's that make socket and/or external
HTTP requests) in one language.
3) Python's interactive interpreter makes it easy to try things out.
4) PyUnit - we would like to develop a robust set of tests and be
able to do regression testing. I'm not aware of a JUnit/PyUnit analog in
PHP. Are you?
5) Python has better code support for complex native data types
(e.g., tuples, dictionaries, sequences, etc. and being able to write these
directly in a hierarchical structure rather than building them up piecewise
with function calls and assignments as in PHP).
6) All the other standard evangeslistic points about why Python is
better than <your favorite language here>, some of which may be valid to us,
some probably not. To those that have used PHP: what am I potentially losing
that Python really can't replace?

So, I'm hoping there are some people out there that actually have some
expereience with both Python & PHP and can give me some solid, informed
advice about PHP vs. Python, in general and particularly on the following
points: (NOT Python evangelism please: I've already heard most of it, I've
espoused a pretty good dose myself - frankly, I'm willing to buy most of it,
but I've got a serious business decision to make here).

1) PHP seems to have a pretty good integration/driver with PostgreSQL.
If we were to switch to Python, what modules/drivers are available to talk
to PosgreSQL and is it as functional as PHP's support?

2) Is there a way to have our cake and eat it too? That is, rather than
being forced to ride one horse or another, can I ride both horses at once:
is there a way to integrate PHP and Python such that I could call PHP
functions from a Python script? I know you can always make system calls, and
it probably wouldn't be that difficult to call an external PHP script and
slurp up it's output from STDOUT, but my impression is that this is a pretty
expensive thing to do (relatively) compared to generating HTML from a single
script invocation. I'm asking if there exists some sort of single-process
integration (e.g., something akin to Java's "native" interface where a
program can schlep data back and forth between a Java environment and
"native" C)?

3) Does Python have an analog to strtotime()? (For those not familiar
with that function, it converts a wide range of date formats as string into
time_t value. Can handle things like "now", "+24 hours", "-3 days",
"yesterday 06:00PM MST", "January 23, 2004", "2004-02-26 18:00:00 -07",
etc.)

4) I am vaguely aware of Apache's modpython. We are currently running
apache, but I'm real green when it comes to configuring/running/managing
Apache. I don't really understand what all modpython does for me. Generally
allows Apache to foist off an HTTP request on a Python script to handle I
assume, but maybe some kind soul can better inform me about what all
modpython really does for me?

5) A PHP script can freely jump in and out of static HTML and script
code with <?php ?> tags. This is sometimes handy. Can you do the same thing
with Python?

6) Debugging: I'm aware there is a debugger for Python - I haven't
really used it. Maybe there is a better way to do this using PHP, but right
now when a PHP script isn't working right, I'm reduced to print statements
and just re-running the script. Do you know a better way to do this in PHP?
If I were doing things in Python, is there an easy way to generate an HTTP
request from my browser, but stop the generating script and analyze it in a
Python debugger?

7) This goes back to #2, but we are looking at purchasing a PHP graphing
package: http://www.aditus.nu/jpgraph/ If we could easily call PHP from
within Python, then I guess that is a no brainer: we can use the PHP
package. If not, then we are left answering the quesiton, can we call it as
a forked process, and if so, is that too expensive? Do you know of
comparable packages for Python?


I think that's it for now. Thank you for taking the time to read my post
and many thanks in advance to anyone who would be so kind as to reply.
(direct response to ej at wellkeeper dot com greatly appreciated).

-ej

Erik Johnson wrote:
> This is somewhat a NEWBIE question...
>
> My company maintains a small RDBS driven website. We currently generate
> HTML using PHP. I've hacked a bit in Python, and generally think it is a
> rather cool language. I've done Perl and like it, there are a few features
> of PHP I like but overall am not too excited about it. I have found PHP's
> strtotime() function to be quite flexible and handy and we make liberal use
> of it.
> 6) All the other standard evangeslistic points about why Python is
> better than <your favorite language here>, some of which may be valid to us,
> some probably not. To those that have used PHP: what am I potentially losing
> that Python really can't replace?
>
> So, I'm hoping there are some people out there that actually have some
> expereience with both Python & PHP and can give me some solid, informed
> advice about PHP vs. Python, in general and particularly on the following
> points: (NOT Python evangelism please: I've already heard most of it, I've
> espoused a pretty good dose myself - frankly, I'm willing to buy most of it,
> but I've got a serious business decision to make here).

When it comes to dynamic, DB driven sites, PHP is the only way to go.
Python is not even close to being suited for this task. PHP claims to be
a general-purpose language, but I do not know anyone who uses it for
anything other than dynamic Web programming.

A serious business decision? PHP would be the only winner here. You
should not even be considering another language for this, it borders on
stupidity. We use Python & C for backend processing, systems
administration and other general programming tasks, but the front-end
(the Websites) are pure PHP.

With total disregard for any kind of safety measures "Erik
Johnson" <ej.at.wellkeeper@dot.com> leapt forth and uttered:

> 4) PyUnit - we would like to develop a robust set of tests and
> be able to do regression testing. I'm not aware of a
> JUnit/PyUnit analog in PHP. Are you?
>

SimpleTest: http://www.lastcraft.com/simple_test.php
PHPUnit (1):http://www.students.cs.uu.nl/people/voostind/index.php?
page=software
PHPUnit (2):http://pear.php.net/package/PHPUnit
PHPUnit (3):http://phpunit.sourceforge.net/

Having three test suites all called PHPUnit is a tad confusing...


--
Phil Roberts | Dork Pretending To Be Hard | http://www.flatnet.net/

Erik> 1) PHP seems to have a pretty good integration/driver with
Erik> PostgreSQL. If we were to switch to Python, what
Erik> modules/drivers are available to talk to PosgreSQL and is it as
Erik> functional as PHP's support?

I use psycopg and like it. There are a couple others as well.

Erik> 3) Does Python have an analog to strtotime()? (For those not
Erik> familiar with that function, it converts a wide range of date
Erik> formats as string into time_t value. Can handle things like
Erik> "now", "+24 hours", "-3 days", "yesterday 06:00PM MST",
Erik> "January 23, 2004", "2004-02-26 18:00:00 -07", etc.)

Marc-Andre Lemburg's mxDateTime might be the closest you'll get to such wide
ranging formats.

Erik> 4) I am vaguely aware of Apache's modpython. We are currently
Erik> running apache, but I'm real green when it comes to
Erik> configuring/running/managing Apache. I don't really understand
Erik> what all modpython does for me. Generally allows Apache to
Erik> foist off an HTTP request on a Python script to handle I
Erik> assume, but maybe some kind soul can better inform me about
Erik> what all modpython really does for me?

It essentially avoids process creation and Python startup overhead. Both
can be significant performance barriers on heavily loaded systems.

Erik> 5) A PHP script can freely jump in and out of static HTML and
Erik> script code with <?php ?> tags. This is sometimes handy. Can
Erik> you do the same thing with Python?

There are lots of different Python-based templating systems. I like
Quixote. It's roughly the inverse of the way most systems do the
HTML/<language> mind-meld. Instead of Python-in-HTML it's HTML-in-Python.
There are other systems with which I am not aware. Cheetah and PSP come to
mind.

Erik> 6) Debugging: I'm aware there is a debugger for Python - I haven't
Erik> really used it. Maybe there is a better way to do this using
Erik> PHP, but right now when a PHP script isn't working right, I'm
Erik> reduced to print statements and just re-running the script. Do
Erik> you know a better way to do this in PHP? If I were doing
Erik> things in Python, is there an easy way to generate an HTTP
Erik> request from my browser, but stop the generating script and
Erik> analyze it in a Python debugger?

Inserting print statements is a pretty common debugging technique in Python
as well. Also, take a look at the cgitb module.

Skip

"Erik Johnson" <ej.at.wellkeeper@dot.com> wrote in message
news:403fa54b@news.zianet.com...
> This is somewhat a NEWBIE question...
> (snip)
> I have not yet really "dug-in" to Python - I have dabbled and hacked a
> bit. I am advocating considering switching to Python for a number of
> reasons:
>
> 1) I think Python is cool.
> 2) We can do system administration type scripts (currently
> implemented in Perl), web page generation (PHP), and (potentially)
> client-side applications (including GUI's that make socket and/or external
> HTTP requests) in one language.
> 3) Python's interactive interpreter makes it easy to try things
out.
> 4) PyUnit - we would like to develop a robust set of tests and be
> able to do regression testing. I'm not aware of a JUnit/PyUnit analog in
> PHP. Are you?
> 5) Python has better code support for complex native data types
> (e.g., tuples, dictionaries, sequences, etc. and being able to write these
> directly in a hierarchical structure rather than building them up
piecewise
> with function calls and assignments as in PHP).
> 6) All the other standard evangeslistic points about why Python is
> better than <your favorite language here>, some of which may be valid to
us,
> some probably not. To those that have used PHP: what am I potentially
losing
> that Python really can't replace?
>
> (snip)
>
> -ej
>
>


You should use what is best for you, but trying to settle on one laguage for
everthing is not a good idea, you will end uplocking yourself into more code
than you need sometimes.

Python is gread for server stuff, and GUI stuff, but for dynamic
intergration of html/script, PHP wins hands down.

Now I also use PHP for everything else (except GUI stuff) on servers, almost
all of my shell scripts are in php, along with autoresponders, mail filters,
data backup servers, etc..

But again, use what is quick/fast/simple to implment for you. I use to use
perl for everthing under the sun, then slowly moved to php, not becouse it
was cool, but rather easier to set up, and with added functions designed for
dynamic site ingration.

You also need to look at what each language was desgined for, sure I can
write a dynamic web page in bash or korn, but why? Perl was written to do
large extraction and reporting of text files, Python was written as a server
language, PHP was design specificly for dynamic/integration of web pages.

Ok, I'm done now.

--
Mike Bradley
http://www.gzentools.com -- free online php tools

Bart Nessux wrote:

> When it comes to dynamic, DB driven sites, PHP is the only way to go.
> Python is not even close to being suited for this task.

WTF??

--Irmen

> So, I'm hoping there are some people out there that actually have some
> expereience with both Python & PHP and can give me some solid, informed
> advice about PHP vs. Python,

My approach is to use PHP with the Smarty templating system for the
web front end. All program logic and "heavy" lifting (and even
the light lifting) is done by a backend Python program accessed
via XML-RPC. That lets me use each language for what it is best
and most productive at.

Testing is easier since you can do it via XML-RPC.

Roger

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 13:50:09 -0700,
Erik Johnson <ej.at.wellkeeper@dot.com> wrote:
> 1) PHP seems to have a pretty good integration/driver with PostgreSQL.
> If we were to switch to Python, what modules/drivers are available to talk
> to PosgreSQL and is it as functional as PHP's support?

There are several; for some reason I don't really understand, there are
multiple Python/PostgreSQL modules. Most of them will support the standard
DB-API described in PEP 249. Personally I use PygreSQL with Quixote as the
web framework.

Note that I'm one of the developers on a Python web framework called Quixote
(www.quixote.ca), so my answers are slanted in that direction. If you're in
the Washington DC area, I'll be giving a Quixote tutorial next weekend at a
Linux user group meeting; see novalug.tux.org for meeting details.

> 3) Does Python have an analog to strtotime()? (For those not familiar
> with that function, it converts a wide range of date formats as string into
> time_t value. Can handle things like "now", "+24 hours", "-3 days",
> "yesterday 06:00PM MST", "January 23, 2004", "2004-02-26 18:00:00 -07",
> etc.)

mxDateTime has an extensive parsing module. There's a PEP for adding date
parsing to core Python, but it may not get done for 2.4.

> 4) I am vaguely aware of Apache's modpython. We are currently running
> apache, but I'm real green when it comes to configuring/running/managing
> Apache. I don't really understand what all modpython does for me. Generally

It embeds a Python interpreter in the Apache daemon, so you can intersperse
Python processing in Apache's request processing. There's going to be a
mod_python tutorial at the upcoming PyCon conference; again, if you're in
the DC area you might consider going in order to talk to existing Python/web
developers.

Note that embedding the interpreter in Apache isn't a requirement; you can
also run applications using SCGI, or FastCGI instead. You'd have to carry
out benchmarks to see which one ends up running fastest for your
application.

> 5) A PHP script can freely jump in and out of static HTML and script
> code with <?php ?> tags. This is sometimes handy. Can you do the same thing
> with Python?

There are various templating packages available for Python, such as Cheetah
(vaguely PHPish), ZPT (XML-based), or PTL (part of Quixote). Personally I
don't find embedding Python code in HTML to be a good idea; it's too
difficult to refactor, and PTL has various convenient features for
automatically quoting HTML.

> a forked process, and if so, is that too expensive? Do you know of
> comparable packages for Python?

One of the upsides of using Python is that many more non-Web-related
packages have been written for it. Scientific programming is a significant
application domain for Python, so several graphing packages have been
written. You could use Reportlab for PDF generation, Chaco, Gnuplot, or Gist
for graphing, or the Python Imaging Library for generating PNGs/JPGs.

--amk

Here's how I see it (I'm a Web Developer by trade):

PHP - excellent database integration, if you don't want to have to use
a Java application server for database work, go with PHP. Also nice
templating system which even the Dreamweaver morons can work with. It
is a bit slow at times (XML-RPC/SOAP implementations stink) and has
limited data types.

Python - excellent GUI support (PyQt/TKinter/wxPython are sooo easy),
best suited to rapid application development - we use it for
prototyping cross-platform C++ apps at work, also for wrapping GUI's
around sysadmin scripts. Plus it's easy to distribute using distutils.

Perl - bloody fast, if you're doing lots of text processing/regex
(e.g. XML parsing) then Perl is it, probably best for sysadmin tasks
too. We use this for large reports at work. I love its hash handling
and wide range of modules.

The moral of the story is don't get locked into one technology, use
the best tools for the job - especially if you happen to know them
all! ;o)

In article <30260531.0402271901.1bbdda99@posting.google.com >,
simo <simoninusa2001@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: